Intimidation Mixer

@Steve Carroll:
Isn't it the same situation today concerning DJ Controllers. Don't you want to create an all-integrated stand-alone Controller which works without the need of a laptop. So far there is nothing on the market that could be called well-thought and well-built. :D

Believe me we're a long way off from the junk which was around in the early days!

But to answer the question, for me, not to continue in this sector, the reasons are the same which finally stopped me. To innovate in an industry where there is little understanding by users, none whatsoever by retailers and a backyard full of wolves who will eat their own mothers dead meat (after they have slashed them) is not the sort of environment which I wish to play in for my whole life.

In short, innovating is much much harder than copying already successful concepts - by orders of magnitude. If you look at companies who are renowned for this behavior http://bit.ly/fUVJ5a you will see it is an accepted part of this business and rampant. The legal system sucks when it comes to IP protection, so it's a race to the bottom (who can produce it cheapest gets the prize) and sure while you do have a few years head start on the clones (if there is no industrial espionage http://bit.ly/ehCgNh ), in the end it takes 2-3 years of development time to innovate really well, whereas it only takes a few months to knock out a clone.

If I wanted to just make cash (and be a business man), I would 'do a behringer', 'or a reloop', 'or even a pioneer' et cetera, in the end no one really gives a shit and the market is quick to forget + criticize the original innovators and then sing the praises of the cheaper or expensive clones as 'better value', etc.

But 1-2 years head start in the market place - (time it takes others to catch up) is nothing when spending 2-3 years on innovating and R&D.

If the smart companies like Roland, Makie et al had made me a sensible offer at the time then maybe I may have continued with them. They had their chance and blew it, but TBH I don't blame them, because even they are not immune to the pond life which feeds from the top where the market innovates and they face their own issues being fat / slow organizations to react.

In truth such companies (or business men) generally have little respect for innovation or 'rocket science' as they might refer to it, or for that matter 'techies' as some like to refer to them, since all the 'rocket science' in the world, wont make up for their business know-how, which these guys claim to have in abundance by basically 'eating people' or cutting people out of the chain - R&D etc.

To them the key is in the cloning (and it works in practice) reinforcing their own believes, then optimizing for efficiency (outsourcing to China) and lastly offering better margins for retailers who are like estate agents, only interested in their commission, pushing for the easiest sale with the same / similar margin etc. like for like.. you choose. + They are proud of their models http://bit.ly/eS3Yi2

'Rocket science for such companies' means costs, time delays, errors, problems, why do it when you can open up the competitions latest products which have proven successful, and this is the important part, look at the technology with your clever engineers, who proudly proclaim they could do that (meaning copy it, or the best features) in a no time at all. Pat on the back for that genius. Change a few details (re package it) and avoid any litigation issues. For such reverse-engineers and business men it is hard to not look down their noses at all them 'rocket scientists' which the other company employed who spent years developing and incurred huge costs with 3 - 4 times the staff as the pond life.

I recently read Lord Sugars biography - "What you see is what you get", here is a little article/review I wrote on it for my clients, it's not that well written as only spent a short time on it, but you may find it interesting :

"Pile them high and sell them cheap"


This was the motto of Lord Sugar's Amstrad. I have just finished reading his autobiography "What you see is what you get", and very much enjoyed reading about the history of Amstrad. This was particularly interesting for me as I also built a small electronics company (in the 1990s) and having grown up in London, I knew many of the companies, exhibitions and the industry he talks about very well.


Amstrad did extremely well, by basically slashing prices of expensive consumer electronics equipment and making products for the "truck driver and his wife" as he admirably refers to his customers. He did this by essentially outsourcing manufacture to the far east and using every trick in the book to cut costs. One of the most successful concepts being, developing the 'all in one' Hi Fi unit and basically cutting out the mess and cost of multiple power supplies and interconnections of separate Hi Fi pieces.


This was innovation at a time when the Hi Fi market was very elitist with most of the waffle being spouted by those who purported to be the 'bees knees' who used to prattle on about the quality of their gold plated plugs etc. trying to pull the wool over the eyes of joe public who hadn't a clue about half of the mumbo jumbo they were going on about, while trying it on with extraordinary prices for kit which looked pretty, but half the time was just average sounding.


So it was a market ripe for the picking and getting in there with a product which every truck driver and his wife in the country could afford was a winning formula. However, Sugar generally lacked respect for 'techies' (as would refer to them) and as far as he was concerned all the 'rocket science' in the world wouldn't impress him, since what these 'techies' lacked was business knowhow, which he tells us he had in abundance.


Sugar is now popular for being the Ogar in the UK's version of The Apprentice where these wannabe 'business hopefuls' get fired until he is left with one who gets hired to work in what's left of his business 'empire' : http://amshold.com/


Sugar made a few hundred million during his business career, mostly from selling shares in Amstrad while it was on the way up, with another few million from court battles with Seagate the hard drive manufacture who conspired to knowingly sell him junk which would fail and ultimately kill his cheap IBM clones business, also by flipping a failing telecoms company he bought for 6 million USD, ploughed in another 10 million, then sold it for 150 Million USD (small 'tit bit' I attended the Hannover exhibition that same year where he set up that deal.) Then another few million from ultimately selling what was left of Amstrad to Murdocs BskyB.


While no one can argue with success I would argue with a few things. There are many companies especially in the electronics sector who are infamous for blatantly copying other manufacture's products and designs, knocking up cheap clones and selling them side by side the real thing only half the price. The retailers love this shit as it makes them good margins and they have no brand loyalty (unless it's their own brand or they stock it). And while there are laws against copyright & patent infringement, the antiquated legal system is guilty of providing inadequate legal protection in practicality.


I remember reading in Dysons manifesto and advice for all the wannabe inventors who badgered him for help, his top advice in the pamphlet he put out was to patent everything! Some good that did him. I went down to buy a 'hoover' (verb not the noun) the other day, and side by side this 499 Dyson hoover was a Philips with all the same features etc. and which retailed for 139 all in... So much for patent protection and his advice!


So arguably while it would seem ethically repugnant to have no R&D costs for launching new concepts and products, spend **** all on marketing, instead just rely on a strong dealer network and do no more than clone the markets leading features and products but repackage them at prices that the 'truck drivers' could afford, it is arguably a great business and one which companies with no shame get away mostly without any legal hassle, in fact it is pretty much industry standard practice, though not so great for reputation management: http://bit.ly/gfLgXO


In one interview Sugar did recently, the interviewer put it to him in a candid way, "is the secret to [your] success, 'putting one over' on the customers" : http://bit.ly/dLEeoK :D very funny to watch.

All in all there are a few interesting business models which can be considered to be successful when we look at Sugars career:

1) copy existing concepts which are new and over priced and offer them at low costs.

2) buying / selling shares in a company when its on the way up.

3) buy companies which have gone bust, reviving them and flipping them when they are profitable or are about to launch a new and innovative product.

4) suing large companies who are guilty of fraud (high risk).

5) selling companies which have ongoing profits to the companies who are buying them products (if you only have a few suppliers)...


And a few things to put on the things to avoid list:

1) football :D (Sugar spent 10 years as chairman of Tottenham Hotspurs) total disaster!

2) not respecting 'techies' as without these geniuses you won't know
what's wrong with your little clones when the hard drives fail! Nor
will you have any new ideas other than "pile them high and sell them
cheap" once all the other "me too's" have caught up!
 
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, zu wissen, wo links und rechts ist und das eben auch eindeutig zu bezeichnen.

Hehe, sure we also used X & Y instead left deck and right deck, another complaint there I suppose! Maybe the red and white plugs were not clear enough :p indicating different channels, just pulling your leg, not being mean!

But if you want conventional go to those other 'designers' cause you wont find it here :D
 
So ich habe hier nicht alles gelesen .. Englisch ist mir auch manchmal einfach zu anstrengend ..

Steve, zunächst mal Folgendes .. Du kannst mit Sicherheit stolz auf deine Leistung sein und ich bin auch der Meinung, dass deine Produkte Zeichen gesetzt haben ..

Zum Design der Mixer .. ich finde es genial .. die gummierten Potiknöpfe suchen bis heute ihresgleichen und es ist reichlich Platz zwischen den Reglern .. die Soundqualität vom Apex mag nicht das gelbe vom Ei sein, aber die EQ's haben sehr schön angesetzt und ich hatte über Jahre sehr viel Spass mit diesem spartanischen Mixer

Auch die beiden Gain LED's haben eigentlich immer gereicht .. wobei das grüne ein verlässlicherer Beatindikator war als der richtige BPM Counter vom DJM 500!
Auch die Sache mit dem Panoramaregler, der die Bassfrequenzen ignorierte war besser als der Panning FX vom DJM 500 .. allein wegen der Bassgeschichte .. auch wenn der DJM ein LFO hat .. egal .. und zu dieser Zeit war der Panning FX vom DJM ungefähr genau so eine Modeerscheinung wie er anschließend – Jahre später – vom Flanger abgelöst wurde ..
.. es war wie gesagt mein erster Mixer .. das heißt, damit habe ich Auflegen gelernt .. und aufgrund seiner Bauweise hat er mich zu "unkonventionellen" Methoden gezwungen, was unter anderem dazu führte, dass ich wirklich perfekt mit Kopfhörer only auflegen kann und dazu in der Lage bin gedanklich zwischen Cue und Master umzuschalten .. anders kann ich das jetzt nicht erklären :D.

Ich hab den Apex jetzt jahrelang nicht mehr angefasst .. habe ihn eigentlich meiner Ex vermacht .. aber ich bereue es jetzt und werde ihn wohl freikaufen^^

Ich hatte es auch schon erwähnt .. dieser Mixer ist FAST baugleich mit dem APEX .. er hat halt Linefader und Killwippen, außerdem eine richtige LED Kette .. aber ansonsten baugleich .. inkl. der schlechtesten "DJ FX Abteilung" die ich kenne :d Da fing diese Namen kopiererei schon an! -- APEX -- EFFEX
49852lb_23.jpeg
 
um dem spuk ein ende zu machen bin ich gerade an die vitrinen gegangen und hab einen apex für euch getestet. wie gesagt das war NACH meiner zeit.

der apex ist ein normaler 2-kanalmixer mit normalem 3fach equalizer. die hier als rotary kills bezeichneten drehpotis sind ganz normale eqs deren skala frisiert ist. das manual sagt man soll die regler auf rechtsanschlag lassen um "komplett" rauszudrehen oder in der mittelstellung lassen, dann kann man noch +5dB geben und etwa -20dB absenken.

das ist natürlich alles käse, denn dreht man alle 3 poties ab kann man ganz normal musik hören, nur etwas leiser. bis zu diesem punkt ist der mixer noch stereo, weil es auch ein ganz normaler mixer ist. so.

sobald man die effekte einschaltet wird alles mono und der klang verändert sich weil es zu auslöschungen kommt. man kann dann auch einen eingangskanal ausstecken und das signal kommt doppelmono aus beiden buchsen. vermutlich wurde hier die schaltung vom blue übernommen die mit der hälfte der bauteile auskommen muss.

dennoch, zur damaligen zeit war dieser kleine mixer in seiner klasse, das darf man nicht ausser acht lassen, einzigartig.
 
Hey that EFFEX must be one of the closest rip offs clones of a combination of Blue and Apex ever! So for fun, we have 2 people with these units, if you want to have some fun, each open the units up, describe the process and time yourself, Apex will be opened in 1 minute! this rip off looks like it will take you a bit longer :D, but it would be great to compare the elegance of design side by side! Images would be great to show everyone the insides of both units...

Ooops I forgot I didn't choose them red and white plugs sorry man, see I'm always trying to confuse you. Haha you should have seen the sight on the DJs face when he arrived at the club and suck his headphones in Don1 and its all split que "what the **** is split que" hehe :D

...No I'm not making electronics no more, it a mugs game all these rip off artists are soo much better at it than me :D
 
...No I'm not making electronics no more, it a mugs game all these rip off artists are soo much better at it than me :D

Honestly mate, I would not ask if that were the case :d

It's a pity, the people who are really outstanding either don't want to play that game anymore or don't have the time to do so.
 
for anyone struggling to understand what I'm saying in English: maybe this helps: http://bit.ly/i6EDAy (is what I'm using)

r2d2, it's not so bad now I think, the market has matured in a very good direction, compared where it was heading I thought? But hey, I'm not involved anymore but from here it looks like there are many players with similar concepts (lots of competition) and many cheap prices :) what more could anyone want?
 
r2d2, it's not so bad now I think, the market has matured in a very good direction, compared where it was heading I thought? But hey, I'm not involved anymore but from here it looks like there are many players with similar concepts (lots of competition) and many cheap prices :) what more could anyone want?

Pioneer forgets booth out completely, other Controllers are built for maximum transportability and lack ease of operation, ... . If you are looking for decent equipment with a high quality of sound, well designed layout and ease of operation (focusing on Jogwheels) you are disappointed although there might be competition on another level.

But this thread is about Intimidation and not about the first well designed controller, so I better shut my mouth :)
 
So, nur der Vollständigkeit halber .. hier die Bilder von meinem Apex .. bzw. das was noch davon übrig ist .. Die Eingänge sind tatsächlich nicht für L + R markiert.

Ich bin mir aber ziemlich sicher, dass ich das damals getestet hatte (weil ich sowas immer pedantisch richtig anchließen will) .. und ich meine mich zu errinnern, dass entgegenden der meisten Japaner und mittlerweile Chinesen, "Rechts" der obere Anschluss ist. Ich habe das damals auf England geschoben :d .. Damit kann ich auch für den Apex NICHT bestätigen, dass schon beim Anschluss eines einzelnen Kabels (Kanal L oder R), sofort aus Master-Out L+R Sound kommt.

Aber mittlerweile hat ja der Entwickler vom Apex – höchstpersönlich – bestätigt, dass der Apex Stereo Out hat und nicht dual-Mono :)



34257-apex_o_h.jpg
 
man fragt sich halt oft wozu man sich die mühe macht in einem forum mitzuwirken... :( anstatt hier wie in deutschland üblich rumzueiern um doch noch ein bischen knowhow vorzutäuschen wäre es besser gewesen eine seite zurück zu blättern... :( https://www.deejayforum.de/6373429-post57.html
 
man fragt sich halt oft wozu man sich die mühe macht in einem forum mitzuwirken... :( anstatt hier wie in deutschland üblich rumzueiern um doch noch ein bischen knowhow vorzutäuschen wäre es besser gewesen eine seite zurück zu blättern... :( https://www.deejayforum.de/6373429-post57.html

Falls Du auch mich damit ansprichst, brauchst nicht zu meinen, dass ich hier auch nur einen einzigen Post ausgelassen hätte .. für mich stand da nichts Neues drin, schließlich habe ich den Mixer selbst .. und bei mir stand er nicht in der Vitrine, sondern ich habe ihn jahrelang benutzt, wie ich jetzt auch schon mehrfach geschrieben habe .. dass wir nicht 100% einer Meinung sind ist mittlerweile auch klar und da wird niemand dran sterben .. also so what?

... anstatt hier wie in deutschland üblich rumzueiern um doch noch ein bischen knowhow vorzutäuschen wäre es besser gewesen eine seite zurück zu blättern. ...
same 2 u :)

Das ist der Apex Gold .. ich muss mal auf meinen schauen .. ich mach nen Foto

So, nur der Vollständigkeit halber .. hier die Bilder von meinem Apex ..
 
Im not sure I understand the translated Google version, but Apex is Stereo, only mono when effects is on. BTW, the effects knobs should be in the down position (not fully up) as shown in that image else you will notice the sound effect, the effect wont be noticed if in controls in the down position. Love the new color knobs in that photo.

If anyone dares to open that Reloop knock off of Blue and Apex "effex" and show me the insides, id love to see it. :)
 
I have tried to open my Reloop Blue mixer but even when all screws were out it was impossible to open it...
 
that's impossible too! :d:p

Habs vor 'ner ganzen Weile mal versucht.
Irgendwo hing es, konnte aber auch nicht feststellen, wo...

EDIT:

Er hängt am Powerknopf...
Sehe da auch nix, was man lösen könnte.
Und abbrechen will ich nix, er läuft ja noch, obwohl er gut 12 Jahre alt ist.
 
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This is one of the reasons I wanted to see inside of it, I have seen inside some mixers in my time and some have been hysterical, one soundlab sticks out that unit really couldn't be opened (and I can open anything!). The wires were all over the place and it would have been destroyed. But for me good design is not just on the outside, or what the user sees, it is throughout every aspect of the unit right down to the internal components of the components. As such we would discuss with the pot manufactures the metal used for the contacts, what they were plated with, the type of carbon used inside the pots etc. One can really tell how well the designers are when you strip down the unit and look at how elegantly it can be repaired and manufactured. Of course a nightmare unit which cannot be easily opened will not be easy to repair, + will be a nightmare on the production line where the team have to bring these things to life.

Manufacturing the units in London was much more expensive than China but the build time of Apex was 2.5 hours (that's total man time to build, test / repair and pack each unit) meaning we could build the unit and retail it at competitive price to some of the other products.

I would really love to see inside the Reloop Clone - pics + videos would be great :). If you kill it I will send you a brand new Apex !
 
I don't really need another mixer :p, but good point! My only interest is having a sneek at how its been technically designed but if you want to swap it email me : steve at the domain who-invented-digital-vinyl.co.uk :) I'd prefer to see a video put up online so everyone else can see what design is like on the inside, then do the same with Apex to see the difference! Maybe it's just a nerd thing :p
 

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