Abmischen & Mastern? Hilfe!!!!!

[Ayu]

Hallöchen!!!

Seit einieger Zeit versuche ich verzweifelt irgendwas auf die Beine zu stellen. Leider stoße ich immer wieder auf ein und das selbe Problem: Abmischen & Mastern! Egal was ich mach, ich bekomm da einfach nix gebacken.
Die Hauptsächlichen Problempunkte wären da z.b.:
Wie krieg ich ne fette und Druckvolle Bassdrum hin?
Wie krieg ich ne Transparenz in meinen Mixdown damit der sich nicht matschig anhört (wenn sich z.b. Sounds überschneiden oder die Bassline bei tiefen Tönen im Song untergeht)?
Ich weis zwar (vom hören her) dass ich dafür nen EQ einsetzen muß, aber wie setz ich den ein ohne dass ich den Sound dadurch kaputt mach!?
Und wie bring ich Power in meine Flächen und Leads damit diese sich nicht schlapp anhören?
Das Internet hat mir da leider nicht weiter geholfen. Ich hab auch schon bei verschidenen Leuten & Foren rumgefragt, Hab aber ständig nur zuhören bekommen ich solle doch bitte hier und da n Knöpfchen drehen bis es sich so anhört wie ich es haben will.
Tolle Antwort. Bisher bin ich nicht weitergekommen damit. :'(
Ich hoffe dass mir da jemmand von Euch irgendwie weiterhelfen kann. Kennt jemmand zufällig gute (mögl. deutsche) Tutorials/Workshops im Internet oder kann mir n evtl. n gutes Buch empfehlen bzw. n paar Tips & Tricks geben? N paar Hörbeispiele wären super.
Hoffe ihr könnt mir da irgendwie weiterhelfen. Ansonnsten schmeiß ich wohl den ganzen scheiß hin! :'(´

Danke...

 

[Ayu]

Sorry wegen meiner einstellung. Aber wenn ich mir anschau dass sich einiege Leute z.b. an Fruity Loops wo se noch net bzw. net lang mit zutun hatten und in 5 min nen Song hervorzaubern da verzweifelt man schon leicht!
Ich weis dass es nicht leicht ist, aber irgendwo müssen es die anderen ja auch gelernt haben.

Von der Stilrichtung will ich Trance machen (so Ferry Corsten, Chicane oder Thrillseers).

Verwenden tu ich hauptsächlich mit Cubase. Dazu noch ein paar Synths sowies Effecte und Sample CDs Aber die sind nicht das Problem. Wenn ich nen Sound haben will such ich halt solange rum bis ich ihn hab. Ob Synth oder Sample CD!

Die Probleme fangen halt erst beim beim Abmischen an. Ich hab einen Leadsound, der sich (für meinen Geschmack) zu trocken anhört. Wenn ich da jetzt n Delay und ein Reverb reinhau, dann krächzt es entweder hinterher tierisch, oder man hört garnix vom Effct.
Dann kommt das Problem, wenn ich ne Bassline mit ner Fläche und nem Leadsound zusammen hab:
Die Sounds überschneiden sich total. Dann hau ich n EQ rein (wies mir einiege Leute erzählt haben). Anschließend dreh ich sinnlos an den Knöpfchen rum und zerstör den Sound nur noch mehr. Ich habs bisher aber noch nie geschafft ne Transparenz reinzubekommen dass man auch die Sounds einzeln raushören kann.
Ok, mir fehlt es echt an erfahrung, da haste Recht. Aber ich hab auch keine Ahnung wo ich mir die Herholen soll. Die einziegsten Erfahrungen waren immer nach dem Motto "das macht den Sound kaputt, mach das ja nie wieder!".
Jedenfalls hab ich bisher immer egal was für ein Effect ich eingesetzt hab den Sound damit kaputt gemacht. Bin aber nie zu nem zufridenen geschweige denn guten Ergebniss gekommen.
Und das ist halt das Problem mit dem ich nicht zurecht komm.

 

[Bruce]

[quote author=Ayu link=board=25;threadid=6813;start=0#65925 date=1049229570]
EQ ... Anschließend dreh ich sinnlos an den Knöpfchen rum und zerstör den Sound nur noch mehr. [/quote]

Bin zwar beim Mastering auch noch nicht sehr weit, aber:
Du sollst ja auch nicht "sinnlos an den Knöpfen rumdrehen". Informier dich über die Zusammenhänge - z.B. bei einer Bassdrum alles unter 100 Hz durch einen LowCut wegzucutten ergibt nicht unbedingt Sinn. Gezieltes Bearbeiten der BD im unteren Frequenzbereich, um z.B. dem Bass mehr Platz zu geben dagegen schon (nur ein Bsp.) -
Der alte Tipp: www.google.de und üben, üben, üben

mfG Bruce

 

[SChrauber]

Dann hau ich n EQ rein (wies mir einiege Leute erzählt haben). Anschließend dreh ich sinnlos an den Knöpfchen rum und zerstör den Sound nur noch mehr.

Ja – und was erwartest du jetzt? Das wir dir genau sagen wie du deinen EQ für diesen Sound einstellen sollst, damit es eben geil klingt?
Wenn das so einfach wäre, bräuchten wir nicht so ein Forum und wenn jemand tatsächlich die universelle Einstellung für alles hätte, dann würde er sie auch niemanden verraten.

mir fehlt es echt an erfahrung, da haste Recht. Aber ich hab auch keine Ahnung wo ich mir die Herholen soll

Ja, vor 10 Jahren hatte ich z.B. auch keine Erfahrung, aber ich hab mir nie die Frage gestellt, wo ich die Hernehmen soll, weil mich die Materie einfach so dermassen interessiert hat, dass ich jede Gelegenheit die sich mir bot genutzt habe um etwas dazu zu lernen.
Das bedeutet
-   Zugucken was andere machen oder gar einen kostenplichtigen Unterricht nehmen
-   Literatur beschaffen und durcharbeiten
-   Sich autodidaktisch mit Equipment beschäftigen
-   Und das www ist nun auch dazu gekommen wo man auf zig1000 Seiten alles zum Thema erfahren kann.

Ich predige es immer wieder – ohne Grundlagenwissen wird man irgendwann immer in der Sackgasse landen, wenn man wirklich ernsthaft was zustande bringen will.

Wenn ein Basston an einer bestimmten Stelle im Gesamtmix untergeht, dann muss eben eine Kompressor bemüht werden. Oder aber man erhöht an dieser Stelle kurzfristig den Pegel. Bei einer Freuquenzüberschneidung überprüft man in welcher Freuqenz das instrument primär erklingt indem man den Sound durchsweept und senkt dann z.B die entsprechende Freuquenz in anderen Instrumenten ab, and so on.
Dieses und ähnliche Probleme sind hier in diversen Threads behandelt worden und es gibt wie eingangs erwähnt diverse Workshops und ähnliches zu diesem Thema im www

Natürlich wird alles was du machst bei dir erstmal scheisse klingen. Sonst könntest du ja auch meine Jobs , ohne das Jahrelange Lernen und mit der Materie beschäftigen, dass ich hinter mich gebracht hab machen.

 

[neuroshock]

mit zunehmenden Grundlagenwissen (z.B. räumliche Aufteilung im Stereobild, Dynamikbearbeitung, Frequenztrennung im Mix, Instrumentauswahl, Arragement, usw.) steigt hörbar die Qualität der eigenen Traxx. Von daher empfiehlt sich ein kleiner (oder grösserer) Exkurs in die Tontechnik. Im Web gibt es massig Informationen (auch hier im Forum, den beiden Producing-Mods sei Dank )
Das richtige Anwenden der Techniken lernt man auch nicht von Heute auf Morgen, sondern Schritt für Schritt. Also einen Gang runterschalten und nicht erwarten, dass man morgen gleich Ferry und Co. Konkurrenz machen kann.

 

[DjKeeper]

hallo ayu!

kannst du bitte deine email adresse, UIN oder ne andere kontaktmöglichkeit veröffentlichen?

dein schreib-stil kommt mir so bekannt vor - aber das besprechen wir dann...

greetz

 

[menintrance]

Now that so many musicians are completing the entire album-making process in their own
studios, mastering is becoming an increasingly important skill. Paul White offers a few pointers
to becoming a Master of mastering.

There's a world of difference between what happens in a professional mastering suite and what the average
project studio owner can do at home. But as more computer-based mastering tools become available it's quite
possible to achieve very impressive results with relatively inexpensive equipment. Certainly there's a lot more to
mastering than simply compressing everything, though compression can play an important role. The most
crucial tool is the ear of the person doing the job, because successful mastering is all about treating every
project individually. There's no standard blanket treatment that you can apply to everything to make it sound
more 'produced'.

Every mastering engineer has preferences regarding the best tools for the job, but if you're just getting started
I'd recommend a good parametric equaliser, a nice compressor/limiter, and perhaps an enhancer, such as an
Aphex Exciter or an SPL Vitalizer. You also need an accurate monitoring environment with speakers that have
a reasonable bass extension, and some form of computer editor that can handle stereo files. The latter should
ideally have digital inputs and outputs, though if you're using an external analogue processor you'll probably be
going into the computer via its analogue inputs, in which case these need to be of good quality too. A
professional may want to start off with a 20- or 24-bit master tape or to work from a half-inch analogue master,
but in the home studio most recording is done to 16-bit DAT. This shouldn't be a problem for most pop music,
providing you proceed carefully.

Most mistakes are due to over-processing, and the old adage 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it' applies perfectly to
mastering. Don't feel that you have to process a piece of music just because you can -- you might find that your
master sounds worse than the original material. And now for the tips...

1. Where possible, handle fade-out endings in a computer editor, rather than
using a master tape that was faded while mixing. Not only does the computer
provide more control, it will also fade out any background noise along with
the music, so that the songs end in perfect silence.

2. Editing on DAT is very imprecise, so when you beam the material into the
computer (digitally, if at all possible) clean up the starts of songs using the Silence
function. Use the waveform display to make sure you silence right up to the start of the
song without clipping it. As a rule, endings should be faded out rather than silenced, as most instruments end
with a natural decay. When the last note or beat has decayed to around 5% of its maximum level, start your fade
and make it around a second long. You can also try this if the song already has a fade-out, though you may want
a slightly longer fade time. Listen carefully to make sure you aren't shortening any long reverb tails or making an
existing fade sound unnatural.

3. Once you've decided on a running order for the tracks on the album, you'll need to match their
levels. This doesn't simply mean making everything the same level, as this will make any ballads
seem inappropriately loud. The vocals often give you the best idea of how well matched levels are
across songs, but ultimately your ears are the best judge. Use the computer's ability to access any
part of the album at random to compare the subjective levels of different songs, and pay particular
attention to the levels of the songs either side of the one you're working on. It's in the transition
between one song and the next that bad level-matching shows up most.

4. If an album's tracks were recorded at different times or in different studios, they may not sit well together without further processing. The use of a good parametric equaliser (hardware or software) will often improve matters. Listen to the bass end of each song to see how that differs and use the EQ to try to even things out. For example, one song might have all the bass energy bunched up at around 80 or 90Hz while another might have an extended deep bass that goes right down to 40Hz or below. Rolling off the sub-bass and peaking up the 80Hz area slightly may bring the bass end back into focus. Similarly, the track with bunched-up bass could be treated with a gentle 40Hz boost and a little cut at around 120Hz. Every equaliser
behaves differently, so there are no universal figures -- you'll need to experiment.

At the mid and high end, use gentle boost between 6 and 15kHz to add air and presence to a mix, while cutting
at 1-3kHz to reduce harshness. Boxiness tends to occur between 150 and 400Hz. If you need to add top to a
track that doesn't have any, try a harmonic enhancer such as an Aphex Exciter -- high-end EQ boost will simply
increase the hiss.

5. To make a track sound louder when it's already peaking close to digital full scale, use a digital
limiter such as the excellent Waves L1 plug-in or Logic Audio's built-in Energizer. In most cases you
can increase the overall level by 6dB or more before your ears notice that the peaks have been
processed. A nice feature of the L1 is that you can effectively limit and normalise in one operation. It's
always good practice to normalise the loudest track on an album to peak at around -0.5dB and then
balance the others to that track, but if you're using the L1 to do this, make normalising your last
process, so that you can use the Waves proprietary noise-shaped dither system to give the best
possible dynamic range. Normalising or other level-matching changes should always be the final
procedure, as all EQ, dynamics and enhancement involves some degree of level change.
Proper re-dithering at the 16-bit level is also recommended if going direct via a digital output to the
production master tape, as it preserves the best dynamic range. Analogue outputs will be
re-dithered by the A-D converter of the recorder.

6. If a mix sounds middly or lacking in definition, the SPL Vitalizer can be very useful (even the very inexpensive
Stereo Jack version produces excellent results). This device combines EQ and enhancer principles in a single
box, and one characteristic of the Vitalizer process is that the mid-range tends to get cleaned up at the same
time as the high end is enhanced and deep bass is added. As with all enhancers, though, be very careful not to
over-use it: keep switching the process in and out, to preserve your sense of perspective. The same applies to
EQ and dynamics -- check regularly against the untreated version to ensure that you're not making things worse.

7. Have a CD player and reference material on hand to use as a comparison for your work. Not only
does this act as a reference for your ears, it also helps to iron out any inaccuracies in your
monitoring system.

8. Overall compression can add energy to a mix and even out a performance, but it isn't mandatory. Music
needs some light and shade to provide dynamics. Often a compressor will change the apparent balance of a
mix slightly, so you may need to use it in combination with EQ. Placing EQ before the compressor results in any
boosted frequencies being compressed most, while placing it after the compressor allows you to equalise the
compressed sound without affecting the compressor operation. Which is best depends on the material being
treated, so try both.

 

[menintrance]

9. A split-band compressor or dynamic equaliser gives more scope for changing the spectral balance
of a mix, but these devices take a little practice before you feel you're controlling them and not vice
versa!

10. One way to homogenise a mix that doesn't quite gel, or one that sounds too dry, is to add reverb to the
entire mix. This has to be done very carefully, as excess reverb can create a washy or cluttered impression, but I
find Lexicon's Ambience programs excellent for giving a mix a discreet sense of space and identity. If the
reverb is cluttering up the bass sounds, try rolling off the bass from the reverb send.

If you want to add a stereo width enhancing effect to a finished mix, there are two main things to consider: the
balance of the mix and the mono compatibility of the end result. Most width enhancers tend to increase the level
of panned or stereo sounds while suppressing centre sounds slightly. Sometimes this can be compensated for
by EQ, but being aware of what's happening is half the battle. Other than the simple phase-inversion width
enhancement used in the SPL Vitalizer, which is completely mono-compatible, width enhancement tends to
compromise the sound of the mono mix, so always check with the mono button in. While most serious listening
equipment is stereo these days, many TVs and portable radios are not, so mono compatibility is important.

11. Listen to the finished master all the way through, preferably using headphones, as these have the
ability to show up small glitches and noises that loudspeakers may mask. Digital clicks can occur in
even the best systems, though using good quality digital interconnects that are no longer than
necessary helps to reduce the risk.

12. Try to work from a 44.1kHz master tape if the end product will be a CD master. If you have to work from a
48kHz tape or one with different tracks recorded at different sample rates, a stand-alone sample-rate converter
can be used during transfer of the material into a computer. If you don't have a sample-rate converter, most
editing software will allow you to do a conversion inside the computer, though this takes processing time and
the quality is not always as good as that from a good-quality dedicated unit.



When using a software sample-rate converter, ensure that the tracks are all recorded with the computer system
set to the same sample rate as the source material. If you don't have a sample-rate converter at all, don't worry
too much, as transferring in the analogue domain via decent external A-D and D-A converters may well produce
better results than an indifferent sample rate converter (with free re-dithering thrown in too!). Alternatively, if your
master is for commercial production rather than for making CD-Rs at home, leave your master at 48kHz and
inform the mastering house so that they can handle the conversion for you.

13. When you're transferring digital material into a computer, ensure that the computer hardware is
set to external digital sync during recording and internal sync during playback. Also double-check
that your record sample rate matches the source sample rate -- people will often present you with
DAT tapes at the wrong sample rate, or even with different tracks at different sample rates. All too
often this is overlooked, until someone realises that one of the songs is playing back around 10
percent slow!

14. Don't expect digital de-noising programs to work miracles -- even the best systems produce side-effects if
you push them too far. The simpler systems are effectively multi-band expanders, where the threshold of each
band is set by first analysing a section of noise from between tracks. For this reason it's best not to try to clean
up your original masters prior to editing, otherwise there may be no noise samples left to work from. With
careful use you can achieve a few dB of noise reduction before the side-effects set in -- as low-level signals
open and close the expanders in the various bands, the background noise is modulated in a way that can only
be described as 'chirping'. The more noise reduction you try to achieve, the worse the chirping, so it's best to
use as little as you can get away with.

15. When editing individual tracks -- for example, when compiling a version from the best sections of
several recordings -- try to make butt joins just before or just after a drum beat, so that any
discontinuities are masked by the beat. However, if you have to use a crossfade edit to smooth over
a transition, try to avoid including a drum beat in the crossfade zone, or you may hear a phasing or
flamming effect where the two beats overlap. As a rule, crossfades should be as short as you can get
away with, to avoid a double-tracked effect during the fade zone. As little as 10-30ms is enough to
avoid producing a click.

 

[menintrance]

16. On important projects, make two copies of the final mastered DAT (one as a backup) and mark these as
Production Master and Clone. Write the sample rate on the box, along with all other relevant data. If you include
test tones, document their level and include a list of all the track start times and running lengths for the benefit of
the CD manufacturer. As mentioned earlier, if, for any reason, you have produced a 48kHz sample rate master,
mark this clearly on the Production DAT Master so that the CD manufacturer can sample-rate convert it for you.

It's always a good idea to avoid recording audio during the first
minute or so of a new DAT tape, to avoid the large number of
dropouts commonly caused by the leader clip in the tape-spool
hub. You can, however, use this section to record test tones, which
will also demonstrate to the person playing your tape that it isn't blank! If you put DAT start IDs on each track,
check them carefully to make sure that there are no spurious ones, and don't use skip IDs.

17. When deciding on how much space to leave between tracks on an album, listen to how the first
track ends and the second one starts. Gaps are rarely shorter than two seconds, but if the starts and
ends are very abrupt you may need to leave up to four seconds between tracks. Use the pre-roll
feature of your digital editor to listen to the transition, so that you can get a feel for when the next
track should start.

18. When using a CD-R recorder to produce a master that will itself be used for commercial CD production,
ensure that the disc can be written in disc-at-once mode rather than a track at a time, and that your software
supports PQ coding to Red Book standard. Check with your CD manufacturer to confirm that they can work
from CD-R as a master, and take note of any special requirements they may have. Be very careful when
handling blank CD-Rs -- there are commercial CDs on the market with beautiful fingerprints embedded in the
digital data!

19. Be aware that stand-alone audio CD recorders usually have an automatic shut-off function if gaps in the audio exceed a preset number of seconds, usually between six and 20. This may be a problem if you need large gaps between tracks. Occasionally, even very low-level passages in classical music can be interpreted as gaps. Also note that these recorders will continue recording
for that same preset number of seconds after the last track, so you'll need to stop recording manually
if you don't want a chunk of silence at the end of the album.

20. When making a digital transfer from a DAT recorder to a CD recorder that can read DAT IDs, it's best to
manually edit the DAT IDs first, so that they occur around half a second before the start of the track. Then you
don't risk missing part of the first note when the track is accessed on a regular CD player. Alternatively, there
are commercial interface units (or CD-R recorders with the facility built in) that delay the audio stream in order
to make coincident or slightly late DAT IDs appear before the audio on the CD-R

So - finde das ganz nützlich. Viel Spass damit

--------------------

________________
_________\///_____
_______/__~__~________
______(__@____@__)________
_____oOOo_(_)_oOOo___________
http://(djvibes).myownmusic.de
http://mp3.de/djvibes
http://www.djvibes.rockt.de
_____________Oooo__________
_____oooO___(___)_______
____(___)____)_/_____
______(____(_/__
_______)____

 

[jerudo]

Hat jemand für mich ´ne nützliche Anleitung/Link für den Anfang. Will mich langsam in die Materie einarbeiten. Vielleicht auch so was wie ´nen Kurs?

 

[Patrick]

Hat jemand für mich ´ne nützliche Anleitung/Link für den Anfang. Will mich langsam in die Materie einarbeiten. Vielleicht auch so was wie ´nen Kurs?

Hey Meister, der Thread ist 4 Jahre alt. Hast Du den noch im Abo gehabt?

 

[Kyu]

Klick.
Zum Bleistift.

 

[steki]

Erfahrung ist dein Meister

nicht denken tu'en...
...möge die Macht mit dir sein

 

[Rentier]

puuuuuuuuuuuh...

warum legen eigentlich alle leute so viel wert auf mastering? liegt wohl daran, daß sie davon keine ahnung haben. gutes mastering ist schön und teuer - aber nicht die ganze miete.

90% der arbeit liegt wenn ihr mich fragt in der abmische...
und da gilt: nicht zu laut abmischen (viele anfänger reißen ja erst mal die kanäle hoch bis es kracht und wundern sich später warum es matscht und 0 transparenz da ist).

die frage vom kollegen war zwar - "wo bekomme ich ne eierlegende wollmilchsau" aber trotzdem schweife ich mal ab:

- zeit
- willen
- geld

 

[Industrial]

90% der arbeit liegt wenn ihr mich fragt in der abmische...
und da gilt: nicht zu laut abmischen (viele anfänger reißen ja erst mal die kanäle hoch bis es kracht und wundern sich später warum es matscht und 0 transparenz da ist).

WORD

ich würde sogar 99% sagen. Wenn der Mix super ist, braucht niemand ein pre-mastering, nur wenn man den song noch lauter haben will.

Gruß

 

[flashmasterstar]

Noch dazu gehören mischen und mastern von zwei verschiedenen Sätzen Ohren erledigt...

 

[Overhead]

DAS ist eigentlich der Punkt, das zweite paar Ohren...

Abgesehen davon braucht ihr euch nicht aufregen wenn jemand die so oft geforderte Suche benutzt und sein Anliegen passend in einen bestehen Thread postet. Das Thema ist auch noch in 5 Jahren aktuell...